Running sound in a reflective room... suggestions? I got hired to run sound for a couple of DIY metal shows in an art gallery (hardwood floors, high ceilings, no dampening, lots of open space) and I'm wondering what I can do to make it sound less shitty. Just going to be running the vocals through the PA, maybe kick too but there's no subs. I've heard that putting the speakers next to each other on stands instead of on each side of the stage could help with standing waves and feedback so I might try that. Any other tricks you live guys have come up with over the years? Here's a shot of the space: __________________ Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 08:48 PM #2 (permalink) arv_foh Brian K arv_foh's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 2,661 Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisTanakaCanwell View Post I've heard that putting the speakers next to each other on stands instead of on each side of the stage could help with standing waves and feedback so I might try that. False. All this is going to do is screw up your audience coverage and cause comb filtering. If possible tune the room with a 31 band EQ before the shows and attempt to tone down really offensive frequencies.. sometimes you will end up with a ridiculous looking graph like this if the room is REALLY bad. Basically all I can offer you is make the band play at a reasonable volume, the less reflections you have from stage volume the better it will sound, but with only kick and vocals in the PA, it's gonna be a crapshoot as to how it will sound anyways. What kind of boxes does the place have? __________________ Audio Engineering, Graphic Design, and Photography www.btkaudio.com www.btkphoto.com arv_foh is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 09:30 PM #3 (permalink) Trevoire520 Senior Member Trevoire520's Avatar Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Fife, Scotland Posts: 4,201 In all honesty a reflective room like that is going to nothing short of a nightmare. Rooms like this tend to get into "full frequency feedback" territory VERY quickly. Your only option is to get the band to play as quietly as physically possible, and for metal bands that's going to be incredibly difficult. If you manage to get the vocals audible above the backline at all I'd consider yourself extremely lucky. I would be tempted to say you should be considering doing some muting on the drums and cymbals to try and bring the overall volume down. Believe me it pains me to say it, and you'll get nothing but grief and bullshit from the bands and drummers, but if the room is as bad as I think it might be then it could really help you out. __________________ Quote: Originally Posted by Shturmovik View Post And don't even get me started on fast double-kick runs that sound like a bag of potatoes being spilled down a flight of stairs when you listen to the tracks in solo! FS: Seymour Duncan Custom Humbucker - £40 FS: Tama Swingstar Snare - £50 Mastering/Stem Mastering - Very Reasonable Rates! Trevoire520 is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 11:31 PM #4 (permalink) if6was9 Ireland if6was9's Avatar Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: lreland Posts: 1,442 I did a gig in a similar art space not too long ago, it's pretty horrible. Bring gates if you're gonna mic any drums. If you have access to any really large draping curtain and a means to hang it then try that but it's not gonna do that much. I'd recommend draping the sides and back of the "stage" and throw some rugs/carpet on the floor. Rooms like that tend to have a really powerful reverb that mucks up everything. Drums and bass are the worst in this situation as the low end seems to excite the room and generate loads of the verb. Good luck! __________________ ----------------------- Check out my band Shardborne. E.P available for free! Bandcamp - http://shardborne.bandcamp.com Soundcloud - http://soundcloud.com/shardborne Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/ShardborneIreland Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/shardborne if6was9 is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 11:39 PM #5 (permalink) Sloan Sounds like shit! Sloan's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cleveland, TN Posts: 4,180 View myspace profile Do your best. __________________ SloanZone Audio | SloanStewart | Strayfire | 40oz. Folklore Yamaha HS80M / Audio Technica ATH-M50 Sloan is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 11:52 PM #6 (permalink) ChrisTanakaCanwell Senior Member ChrisTanakaCanwell's Avatar Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Washington Posts: 477 Quote: Originally Posted by arv_foh View Post False. All this is going to do is screw up your audience coverage and cause comb filtering. Good to know; thanks Quote: Originally Posted by arv_foh View Post If possible tune the room with a 31 band EQ before the shows and attempt to tone down really offensive frequencies.. ... Basically all I can offer you is make the band play at a reasonable volume, the less reflections you have from stage volume the better it will sound, but with only kick and vocals in the PA, it's gonna be a crapshoot as to how it will sound anyways. What kind of boxes does the place have? It's an old Sunn powered mixer and two JBL 12/horns on stands They know the acoustics are horrible in there (I did a loud doom metal band with clean female vocals in there a couple months ago), but it's low-budget and they just want someone there for damage control. I'd still like to do whatever I can though! Quote: Originally Posted by Trevoire520 View Post In all honesty a reflective room like that is going to nothing short of a nightmare. Rooms like this tend to get into "full frequency feedback" territory VERY quickly. Your only option is to get the band to play as quietly as physically possible, and for metal bands that's going to be incredibly difficult. If you manage to get the vocals audible above the backline at all I'd consider yourself extremely lucky. I would be tempted to say you should be considering doing some muting on the drums and cymbals to try and bring the overall volume down. Believe me it pains me to say it, and you'll get nothing but grief and bullshit from the bands and drummers, but if the room is as bad as I think it might be then it could really help you out. Word. It's crusty underground bands so I'm hoping they'll be more willing to put their egos aside and do what they can Quote: Originally Posted by if6was9 View Post I did a gig in a similar art space not too long ago, it's pretty horrible. Bring gates if you're gonna mic any drums. If you have access to any really large draping curtain and a means to hang it then try that but it's not gonna do that much. I'd recommend draping the sides and back of the "stage" and throw some rugs/carpet on the floor. Rooms like that tend to have a really powerful reverb that mucks up everything. Drums and bass are the worst in this situation as the low end seems to excite the room and generate loads of the verb. Good luck! Good idea... I might try to gate/expand the vocals too now that you mention it. Maybe the promoters can round up some dampening material. Thanks! __________________ Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 15th, 2013, 11:53 PM #7 (permalink) ChrisTanakaCanwell Senior Member ChrisTanakaCanwell's Avatar Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Washington Posts: 477 Quote: Originally Posted by Sloan View Post Do your best. __________________ Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 12:15 AM #8 (permalink) if6was9 Ireland if6was9's Avatar Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: lreland Posts: 1,442 Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisTanakaCanwell View Post Good to know; thanks It's an old Sunn powered mixer and two JBL 12/horns on stands They know the acoustics are horrible in there (I did a loud doom metal band with clean female vocals in there a couple months ago), but it's low-budget and they just want someone there for damage control. I'd still like to do whatever I can though! Word. It's crusty underground bands so I'm hoping they'll be more willing to put their egos aside and do what they can Good idea... I might try to gate/expand the vocals too now that you mention it. Maybe the promoters can round up some dampening material. Thanks! The Arty crowd might have some heavy curtain /material. Gating the vocal is an option but be careful and err on the side of caution. Vocalists can be very dynamic and they can interpret their vocal cutting out on super quiet sounds as it being broken. Also in my experience, crusty underground bands are the least understanding about playing to the room. Bands not used to a decent sound setup are usually the most ignorant of the problems involved with live sound and see anything the engineer asking them to change as the engineer not knowing what the band sound like. __________________ ----------------------- Check out my band Shardborne. E.P available for free! Bandcamp - http://shardborne.bandcamp.com Soundcloud - http://soundcloud.com/shardborne Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/ShardborneIreland Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/shardborne if6was9 is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 12:42 AM #9 (permalink) slo77y Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 70 tape the cymbals. mic the kick, high pass it to just get the attack on the PA. turn the vocals super loud. mix the band with their backline, including eq sections of amplifiers and volume controls (be prepared to get shitstormed by the band) bring A LOT of people in to dampen the room. ultimately: run away. honestly, theres no real way of fixing this. slo77y is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 02:47 AM #10 (permalink) Mashreef Killing machine Ezx Mashreef's Avatar Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Chittagong,Bangladesh Posts: 522 use a noise gate __________________ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Silen...47464358626050 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Studio-X50/521916774501968 Mashreef is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 04:42 AM #11 (permalink) MotherEel Senior Member MotherEel's Avatar Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Blue Mountains, Australia Posts: 766 Put the speakers well forward of the mics. See if you can hang some blankets or similar behind the band. __________________ Grindhead Records - Free Postage Worldwide Website, Facebook, Myspace Mother Eel - Providers of Intense Stoner Death Grind Website, Facebook, Myspace MotherEel is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 10:15 AM #12 (permalink) baalzebubba Junior Member baalzebubba's Avatar Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 22 Do you best to fill the room with people. They can be your broadband gobos. The height reflections are going to be something that you cannot mitigate without treatment. Another thought... more booze to the guests. Then they wont notice. I suggest booze for you too so you wont notice or care. __________________ IA IA ! ! ! ! baalzebubba is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 10:38 AM #13 (permalink) -Noodles- 3 Initals Mixer -Noodles-'s Avatar Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,152 Keep the speakers (including guitar cabs) pointed at the middle audience. Using the audience as absorbers will ensure they will at least hear some of the band's sound, rather than the huge diffuse field. Looks like a cool room for acoustic artists though! __________________ this time will be different. just like every other time. -Noodles- is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 12:53 PM #14 (permalink) HCL Holy Crap! Lions! HCL's Avatar Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 413 Don't do it if the bands' music is stylistically tight and relies on a separated sound, try and get bands that work with a reverby vibe. Don't overdo the high end, that would just be a nightmare. +1 to blankets. Get loads of them. HCL is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 16th, 2013, 07:48 PM #15 (permalink) SethTheGreat Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Gainesville, TX Posts: 196 I've been involved in some pretty great sounding shows in very similar situations. I would suggest getting in contact with the bands in advance and talking with them about having to work TOGETHER to make it sound good in there. With some thorough communication, most bands (unless they're just total assholes) should be ok with you touching the knobs on their amps and stuff. In my experience, shows sound terrible when the sound guy's only request is "turn it down!" It pisses the band off and doesn't usually fix much. If one of the guitar amps is ear-piercingly shrill, get in there and turn the treble down, etc.. Setting up a back-line is also an idea, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Usually just pisses everybody (including you) off. Edit: And if you decide to put the high end of the kick through the PA, you might try to get your hands on a compressor. It helps muchas. Last edited by SethTheGreat : January 16th, 2013 at 07:53 PM. SethTheGreat is offline Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post! Reply With Quote Old January 17th, 2013, 02:33 PM #16 (permalink) arv_foh Brian K arv_foh's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 2,661 Sidewashing guitar amps might help but in a room that reflective I'm not positive.. Couldn't hurt to try though __________________ Audio Engineering, Graphic Design, and Photography