Running sound in a reflective room... suggestions?
I got hired to run sound for a couple of DIY metal shows in an art gallery (hardwood floors, high ceilings, no dampening, lots of open space) and I'm wondering what I can do to make it sound less shitty. Just going to be running the vocals through the PA, maybe kick too but there's no subs. I've heard that putting the speakers next to each other on stands instead of on each side of the stage could help with standing waves and feedback so I might try that. Any other tricks you live guys have come up with over the years? Here's a shot of the space:
__________________
Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings
ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 08:48 PM #2 (permalink)
arv_foh
Brian K
arv_foh's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTanakaCanwell View Post
I've heard that putting the speakers next to each other on stands instead of on each side of the stage could help with standing waves and feedback so I might try that.
False. All this is going to do is screw up your audience coverage and cause comb filtering.
If possible tune the room with a 31 band EQ before the shows and attempt to tone down really offensive frequencies.. sometimes you will end up with a ridiculous looking graph like this if the room is REALLY bad.
Basically all I can offer you is make the band play at a reasonable volume, the less reflections you have from stage volume the better it will sound, but with only kick and vocals in the PA, it's gonna be a crapshoot as to how it will sound anyways. What kind of boxes does the place have?
__________________
Audio Engineering, Graphic Design, and Photography
www.btkaudio.com
www.btkphoto.com
arv_foh is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 09:30 PM #3 (permalink)
Trevoire520
Senior Member
Trevoire520's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Fife, Scotland
Posts: 4,201
In all honesty a reflective room like that is going to nothing short of a nightmare. Rooms like this tend to get into "full frequency feedback" territory VERY quickly. Your only option is to get the band to play as quietly as physically possible, and for metal bands that's going to be incredibly difficult.
If you manage to get the vocals audible above the backline at all I'd consider yourself extremely lucky.
I would be tempted to say you should be considering doing some muting on the drums and cymbals to try and bring the overall volume down. Believe me it pains me to say it, and you'll get nothing but grief and bullshit from the bands and drummers, but if the room is as bad as I think it might be then it could really help you out.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shturmovik View Post
And don't even get me started on fast double-kick runs that sound like a bag of potatoes being spilled down a flight of stairs when you listen to the tracks in solo!
FS: Seymour Duncan Custom Humbucker - £40
FS: Tama Swingstar Snare - £50
Mastering/Stem Mastering - Very Reasonable Rates!
Trevoire520 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 11:31 PM #4 (permalink)
if6was9
Ireland
if6was9's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: lreland
Posts: 1,442
I did a gig in a similar art space not too long ago, it's pretty horrible. Bring gates if you're gonna mic any drums.
If you have access to any really large draping curtain and a means to hang it then try that but it's not gonna do that much. I'd recommend draping the sides and back of the "stage" and throw some rugs/carpet on the floor.
Rooms like that tend to have a really powerful reverb that mucks up everything. Drums and bass are the worst in this situation as the low end seems to excite the room and generate loads of the verb. Good luck!
__________________
-----------------------
Check out my band Shardborne. E.P available for free!
Bandcamp - http://shardborne.bandcamp.com
Soundcloud - http://soundcloud.com/shardborne
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/ShardborneIreland
Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/shardborne
if6was9 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 11:39 PM #5 (permalink)
Sloan
Sounds like shit!
Sloan's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cleveland, TN
Posts: 4,180
View myspace profile
Do your best.
__________________
SloanZone Audio | SloanStewart | Strayfire | 40oz. Folklore
Yamaha HS80M / Audio Technica ATH-M50
Sloan is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 11:52 PM #6 (permalink)
ChrisTanakaCanwell
Senior Member
ChrisTanakaCanwell's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by arv_foh View Post
False. All this is going to do is screw up your audience coverage and cause comb filtering.
Good to know; thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by arv_foh View Post
If possible tune the room with a 31 band EQ before the shows and attempt to tone down really offensive frequencies..
...
Basically all I can offer you is make the band play at a reasonable volume, the less reflections you have from stage volume the better it will sound, but with only kick and vocals in the PA, it's gonna be a crapshoot as to how it will sound anyways. What kind of boxes does the place have?
It's an old Sunn powered mixer and two JBL 12/horns on stands They know the acoustics are horrible in there (I did a loud doom metal band with clean female vocals in there a couple months ago), but it's low-budget and they just want someone there for damage control. I'd still like to do whatever I can though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevoire520 View Post
In all honesty a reflective room like that is going to nothing short of a nightmare. Rooms like this tend to get into "full frequency feedback" territory VERY quickly. Your only option is to get the band to play as quietly as physically possible, and for metal bands that's going to be incredibly difficult.
If you manage to get the vocals audible above the backline at all I'd consider yourself extremely lucky.
I would be tempted to say you should be considering doing some muting on the drums and cymbals to try and bring the overall volume down. Believe me it pains me to say it, and you'll get nothing but grief and bullshit from the bands and drummers, but if the room is as bad as I think it might be then it could really help you out.
Word. It's crusty underground bands so I'm hoping they'll be more willing to put their egos aside and do what they can
Quote:
Originally Posted by if6was9 View Post
I did a gig in a similar art space not too long ago, it's pretty horrible. Bring gates if you're gonna mic any drums.
If you have access to any really large draping curtain and a means to hang it then try that but it's not gonna do that much. I'd recommend draping the sides and back of the "stage" and throw some rugs/carpet on the floor.
Rooms like that tend to have a really powerful reverb that mucks up everything. Drums and bass are the worst in this situation as the low end seems to excite the room and generate loads of the verb. Good luck!
Good idea... I might try to gate/expand the vocals too now that you mention it. Maybe the promoters can round up some dampening material. Thanks!
__________________
Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings
ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2013, 11:53 PM #7 (permalink)
ChrisTanakaCanwell
Senior Member
ChrisTanakaCanwell's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloan View Post
Do your best.
__________________
Mercy Brown | Birdhouse Squirrel Recordings
ChrisTanakaCanwell is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 12:15 AM #8 (permalink)
if6was9
Ireland
if6was9's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: lreland
Posts: 1,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTanakaCanwell View Post
Good to know; thanks
It's an old Sunn powered mixer and two JBL 12/horns on stands They know the acoustics are horrible in there (I did a loud doom metal band with clean female vocals in there a couple months ago), but it's low-budget and they just want someone there for damage control. I'd still like to do whatever I can though!
Word. It's crusty underground bands so I'm hoping they'll be more willing to put their egos aside and do what they can
Good idea... I might try to gate/expand the vocals too now that you mention it. Maybe the promoters can round up some dampening material. Thanks!
The Arty crowd might have some heavy curtain /material.
Gating the vocal is an option but be careful and err on the side of caution. Vocalists can be very dynamic and they can interpret their vocal cutting out on super quiet sounds as it being broken.
Also in my experience, crusty underground bands are the least understanding about playing to the room. Bands not used to a decent sound setup are usually the most ignorant of the problems involved with live sound and see anything the engineer asking them to change as the engineer not knowing what the band sound like.
__________________
-----------------------
Check out my band Shardborne. E.P available for free!
Bandcamp - http://shardborne.bandcamp.com
Soundcloud - http://soundcloud.com/shardborne
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/ShardborneIreland
Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/shardborne
if6was9 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 12:42 AM #9 (permalink)
slo77y
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 70
tape the cymbals.
mic the kick, high pass it to just get the attack on the PA.
turn the vocals super loud.
mix the band with their backline, including eq sections of amplifiers and volume controls (be prepared to get shitstormed by the band)
bring A LOT of people in to dampen the room.
ultimately: run away. honestly, theres no real way of fixing this.
slo77y is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 02:47 AM #10 (permalink)
Mashreef
Killing machine Ezx
Mashreef's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chittagong,Bangladesh
Posts: 522
use a noise gate
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Silen...47464358626050
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Studio-X50/521916774501968
Mashreef is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 04:42 AM #11 (permalink)
MotherEel
Senior Member
MotherEel's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Posts: 766
Put the speakers well forward of the mics. See if you can hang some blankets or similar behind the band.
__________________
Grindhead Records - Free Postage Worldwide
Website, Facebook, Myspace
Mother Eel - Providers of Intense Stoner Death Grind
Website, Facebook, Myspace
MotherEel is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 10:15 AM #12 (permalink)
baalzebubba
Junior Member
baalzebubba's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
Posts: 22
Do you best to fill the room with people. They can be your broadband gobos. The height reflections are going to be something that you cannot mitigate without treatment.
Another thought... more booze to the guests. Then they wont notice. I suggest booze for you too so you wont notice or care.
__________________
IA IA ! ! ! !
baalzebubba is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 10:38 AM #13 (permalink)
-Noodles-
3 Initals Mixer
-Noodles-'s Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,152
Keep the speakers (including guitar cabs) pointed at the middle audience.
Using the audience as absorbers will ensure they will at least hear some of the band's sound, rather than the huge diffuse field.
Looks like a cool room for acoustic artists though!
__________________
this time will be different.
just like every other time.
-Noodles- is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 12:53 PM #14 (permalink)
HCL
Holy Crap! Lions!
HCL's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Plymouth, UK
Posts: 413
Don't do it if the bands' music is stylistically tight and relies on a separated sound, try and get bands that work with a reverby vibe.
Don't overdo the high end, that would just be a nightmare.
+1 to blankets. Get loads of them.
HCL is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2013, 07:48 PM #15 (permalink)
SethTheGreat
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gainesville, TX
Posts: 196
I've been involved in some pretty great sounding shows in very similar situations. I would suggest getting in contact with the bands in advance and talking with them about having to work TOGETHER to make it sound good in there. With some thorough communication, most bands (unless they're just total assholes) should be ok with you touching the knobs on their amps and stuff.
In my experience, shows sound terrible when the sound guy's only request is "turn it down!" It pisses the band off and doesn't usually fix much.
If one of the guitar amps is ear-piercingly shrill, get in there and turn the treble down, etc..
Setting up a back-line is also an idea, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Usually just pisses everybody (including you) off.
Edit: And if you decide to put the high end of the kick through the PA, you might try to get your hands on a compressor. It helps muchas.
Last edited by SethTheGreat : January 16th, 2013 at 07:53 PM.
SethTheGreat is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2013, 02:33 PM #16 (permalink)
arv_foh
Brian K
arv_foh's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,661
Sidewashing guitar amps might help but in a room that reflective I'm not positive.. Couldn't hurt to try though
__________________
Audio Engineering, Graphic Design, and Photography
