Old February 16th, 2010, 10:34 PM #1 (permalink)
shred101
Senior Member
shred101's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 638
Does anyone else think that compression is WAY overused nowadays?
Few weeks ago went to record drums at a local studio and we had to actually go back and do the session again because the dick had compressed the shit out of everything and there were no transients left on the snare. Flat as a pancake! Cost us as much in transport as the studio itself did. Eventually we just asked for a refund and left it at that because we couldnt be assed.
After that I went on a local band demo crawl looking for a good place to go to do some live drums (as I'm mixing in a room at home atm) and came up almost empty because most of them were pretty dire. The main thing I notice is that on a lot of semipro bands/studio recordings (and even some pro places) that everyone seems to just chuck compression all over the place regardless of whether anything even needs it or not so im just curious if anyone else is thinking the same thing.
shred101 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2010, 10:54 PM #2 (permalink)
Metaltastic
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 19,939
So your point is there are a lot of retards out there who run "studios" that slap compression on everything and have no idea how to use it? Stop the presses Like sweep picking, tapping, and sample replacement, compression has its place, but can very easily be overdone
Metaltastic is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2010, 11:00 PM #3 (permalink)
LydonB
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 1,762
I think things are more over compressed these days more than over used. But I guess they could be considered one in the same.
LydonB is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2010, 11:30 PM #4 (permalink)
cloy26
d00d
cloy26's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Port St. Lucie, FL
Posts: 1,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaltastic View Post
Like sweep picking, tapping, and sample replacement, compression has its place, but can very easily be overdone
wha wha wha wha? sweeping? tapping? replacement?
There is never too much.
cloy26 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2010, 11:30 PM #5 (permalink)
AerialThesis
@ KMR Studios
AerialThesis's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Longueuil, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 346
Dynamics are part of the music itself, and reducing them only for level purposes is completely stupid
__________________
A penis is like a lama, don't fool with it, it might spit on you...
AerialThesis is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 09:18 AM #6 (permalink)
Harry Hughes
Harry Hughes's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Greater Melbourne metropolitan area, Australia
Posts: 4,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by AerialThesis View Post
Dynamics are part of the music itself, and reducing them only for level purposes is completely stupid
Some music is meant to be full bore all the way though.
I can't picture many technical death metal albums having heaps of variation in loudness
__________________
Harry Hughes is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 09:32 AM #7 (permalink)
Ermz
Ma baws ist Krieg
Ermz's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 19,838
Your issue seems to be more with poor use of compression rather than over-use. Anyone that over-does fast-attack style compression on the way down with drums is asking for a career change.
On the broader issue, I find dynamics are vastly over-rated. Unless you're sitting in a hall with an orchestra you really don't get to feel the full impact of decibel swings on home systems. Most of the time you don't want to. Usually you're riding a very sweet spot of 'loud enough to be heard over ambient household noise' and 'not too loud as to piss off others'. Dynamics fuck you here, repeatedly, mercilessly. I HATE having to reach for my volume knob during music or movies. Dynamics can be approximated with density, and the overall dynamic range does NOT have to be huge in order to be effective.
Music like rock and metal largely doesn't benefit from much dynamic range whatsoever. In fact it conversely seems to benefit from being squashed, so that the nuances of the performance, reverb etc. are enhanced and sensationalized. It makes for a more titillating listening experience, provided the limiting/clipping isn't overdone.
I'm probably in the minority with this viewpoint in the current underground rage against the so-called 'loudness wars'. Just bear in mind it's this over-compression that is allowing genres like metal to sound better than some guy shitting into a paper bag. Control of dynamics and envelopes is a powerful thing. Over-use is just poor use. Experienced operators will get what they want from it, and enhance the source material as a result.
__________________
www.systematicproductions.com
> Twitter
> Facebook
Ermz is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 09:43 AM #8 (permalink)
TheDriller
Senior Member
TheDriller's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Fuck burning churches, lets burn down schools and wildlife preserves
Posts: 2,214
Im with Ermz on this one.
I'd rather hear a strong, slightly over-compressed sound than a weak, apologetic mess where whole sections of the music disappear into the noise floor of your house.
__________________
Utility In Stereo || Painless Project Management for Audio Engineers || facebook.com/utilityinstereo
TheDriller is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 09:47 AM #9 (permalink)
joeymusicguy
Senior Member
joeymusicguy's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: indiana
Posts: 3,809
yes, hence the reason i pretty much stopped using it
joeymusicguy is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 09:58 AM #10 (permalink)
slashvanyoung
Dopefish lives!
slashvanyoung's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,469
While I agree that dynamics aren't really a key element for many styles of metal when you're basically trying to maximize and sustain impact, I also think it has gone too far... way to far.
There's always that trade-off between "hugeness" and "fatigue". Take the latest AIC record as an example: Staub's mix is incredibly huge but I have a hard time to really enjoy it because the final product is so fatiguing.
And that's a rock record. It's way worse with many modern metal records. Take "Beneath The Massacre" as an example: I have to turn that stuff off after a few seconds, I simply cannot stand this constant sonic assault any more.
For me personally, metal productions reached their pinnacle in the early to mid nineties (generally speaking - there are exceptions of course), when there was a good balance of everything.
Just my 2 cents.
slashvanyoung is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 10:08 AM #11 (permalink)
El_Gato
I love this gain
El_Gato's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,236
View myspace profile
I like pancakes in choruses, but I found myself taming parts in a song more than expected because mastering will flat em up.
__________________
Don't ask what your gear can do for you, but what you can do for your gear
El_Gato is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 10:08 AM #12 (permalink)
narcossintese
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 1,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermz View Post
I find dynamics are vastly over-rated. (...) I HATE having to reach for my volume knob during music or movies.
This. I hate so much having to reach the iPod in my pocket just because a low RMS song started to play that I usually end up putting only albums made after 1998 on it.
narcossintese is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 10:16 AM #13 (permalink)
006
Mike G
006's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SATX
Posts: 8,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermz View Post
On the broader issue, I find dynamics are vastly over-rated. Unless you're sitting in a hall with an orchestra you really don't get to feel the full impact of decibel swings on home systems. Most of the time you don't want to. Usually you're riding a very sweet spot of 'loud enough to be heard over ambient household noise' and 'not too loud as to piss off others'. Dynamics fuck you here, repeatedly, mercilessly. I HATE having to reach for my volume knob during music or movies. Dynamics can be approximated with density, and the overall dynamic range does NOT have to be huge in order to be effective.
Music like rock and metal largely doesn't benefit from much dynamic range whatsoever. In fact it conversely seems to benefit from being squashed, so that the nuances of the performance, reverb etc. are enhanced and sensationalized. It makes for a more titillating listening experience, provided the limiting/clipping isn't overdone.
I'm probably in the minority with this viewpoint in the current underground rage against the so-called 'loudness wars'. Just bear in mind it's this over-compression that is allowing genres like metal to sound better than some guy shitting into a paper bag. Control of dynamics and envelopes is a powerful thing. Over-use is just poor use. Experienced operators will get what they want from it, and enhance the source material as a result.
Yessss. Totally agree.
__________________
Lyle Cooper Session Drums
Winter Skies Productions on FaceBook
Cubase Slip Editing Tutorial Video
006 Drum Pack v1.1: TCI Only,WAV Only
*PM me for professional drum and/or guitar editing*
006 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 10:31 AM #14 (permalink)
greyskull
Senior Member
greyskull's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,719
theres defiantly a sweet spot. some people do over do it. I love spanking things so they fit in the mix if they have a wide dynamic range, but i won't compress stuff that doesnt need it.
greyskull is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 01:42 PM #15 (permalink)
Arrowed Lung Studios
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 92
Dynamics really depend on the genre. As stated before, A tech DM band doesnt need dynamics, their hard hitting the whole entire time. However for classical music, only a slight amount of compression. 50% of classical music is dynamics. Lately ive been listening to some brahms and mahler and they both need the dynamics. I dont mind pumping up my volume knob a tad. However, that aside, part of the metal "sound" is compression. Im not tettering to one side or the other in the loudness war. I think some stuff benefits from being squashed and balls out, while others require the subleties of dynamics.
__________________
My Home Studio
www.myspace.com/arrowedlungstudios
Arrowed Lung Studios is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 02:21 PM #16 (permalink)
jangoux
Senior Member
jangoux's Avatar
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,736
+1 to Ermz post. I love compressing things a lot, and i am getting more extreme with time when using compression. However, one should know when to stop it or it may sound fatiguing like AIC´s or Daughtry´s new one (the latter sounds terrible, it sounds almost like a sine wave heeheh). No compression at all may also sound awesome when used correctly. Latest Mariah Carey single (that one with the finger clapping noise - or whatever is is called in english) has almost no compression on the voice and her voice sounds awesome. So, it depends on the good judgment and ear of the AE.
jangoux is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 04:49 AM #17 (permalink)
mva801
Senior Member
mva801's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,067
I agree with Ermz for the most part. Why they're compressing your drums so hard to tape is beyond me. Find a studio/ engineer who knows how to record a live drumset for rock/ metal. You may have to dish out a little more cash for the experienced guys, but it will be worth it - trust me.
Regarding dynamics as a whole, I wish more bands would incorporate dynamic shifts in their songwriting. Opeth comes to mind as a modern metal band that relies HEAVILY on dynamics to create mood swings and interesting changes in their music. Watershed is one of the most dynamic metal recordings I've ever heard. BUT, it's music you have to pay attention to. When you're driving on the freeway jamming out, sometimes the acoustic guitar parts will go away under the background noise. But when listening on a decent system in a good environment, it provides impact and depth. You just have to find the happy medium...
mva801 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 05:15 AM #18 (permalink)
Harry Hughes
Harry Hughes's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Greater Melbourne metropolitan area, Australia
Posts: 4,352
I wonder if it makes me deaf that records like Planetary Duality by The Faceless and Black Gives Way To Blue by Alice in Chains don't sound fatiguing at all to me lol.
It sounds like music to me. Yes the latest AIC is loud, but the mix is fanfuckingtastic and so is the music and I'll listen to that album again and again and again.
For a while I was totally "MAN TEH LOUDNESZ WARZ R BAD" but then I actually started getting into this kind of stuff we do here at the Sneap forum and realized I was full of shit and I knew nothing. And indeed I still have a lot to learn.
Using buckets of compression was a big step in helping to make the low end in my mixes more defined than they used to be, because of instead of having a flubby turd of mess.
There is only so much EQ can do, how much good playing can do and good gear can do before I needed to reach for the multiband compression, compression and limiting.
Instead of just EQ-ing out frequencies that played foul with my mix in the low end, I could just compress the shit out of it, which meant I could keep that fuller low end since I no longer needed to EQ out as much offending frequencies, which translated into a bigger sounding mix overall without it sounding muddy.
I want dynamics? I'll just automate them back in after I've compressed the stuff (or in the case of guitars, they are usually compressed due to the gain so I don't add more compression, but yeah can automate sections to make them quieter).
I think Isis, Paramore and Katatonia are examples of modern artists who still have some dynamics in their music so when it goes from certain sections it kicks you in the ass, but it's not so excessive that you need to reach for the volume knob/turn down the volume in iTunes, which really fucking annoys me having to do that.
Some music calls for more dynamics than others, and that's a good thing because I like contrast.
I like being able to listen to classical music, then a moderately dynamic record like Night Is the New Day and then put on a full bore album like At The Drive In's Relationship of Command or Rust In Peace
__________________
Harry Hughes is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 06:21 AM #19 (permalink)
AEL89
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 941
Bad compression - yes. That's why your snare track would have sounded terrible. For me, I might have 5 snare tracks - top, bottom and 3 samples. I'll compress any that I think need compression, then they get bussed to the snare bus. More compression. Then the snare bus goes to a kick/snare bus. More compression. Then to a drum bus. More compression. If you get your compression right at every stage then your drums are going to be smacking you in the face and will need minimal EQ - mud cutting at the most.
__________________
Alex Loring
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumVolta View Post
I'm also offering a ridiculously cheap price at the moment due to not having tom mic's
AEL89 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 07:24 AM #20 (permalink)
smy1
Drink Beer, Kick Ass!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 2,530
Do it like me: make a CD version with barely any compression limiting and a download/iPod & club version that is squashed to death. It doesn't need that much extra effort and it'll work like a charm.
BTW: since October 2008 I haven't received ONE complaint that my album "FH3" is not loud enough. It shifts between -15db RMS and -11db RMS and nobody even notices. The download versions for this were much louder to avoid the "all songs need to be the same volume in my iPod or I'll freak out in a fuckin' rage"-problem. I wonder though if ya'll stopped listening to your favorite albums from 1994 on your iPod or in your cars? Cause I really don't see this as big problem for non-AE folk either
__________________
www.faderhead.com
www.facebook.com/faderhead
www.twitter.com/faderhead
Last edited by smy1 : February 18th, 2010 at 07:31 AM.
smy1 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 01:18 PM #21 (permalink)
Sacha
Throbbing Member
Sacha's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,214
Compression doesn't bother me overly but obviously audible clipping does. The odd one here and there whatever but all over the place is annoying as fuck.
As far as dynamics control I definitely think it's a fine line between proper control and crushing the life out of everything, that's one of the skills (among many) that seem to seperate the best producers from the rest.
__________________
Another asshole with a "studio" - Perfect Fifth
Specializing in pterodactyl Metal since 1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottCash View Post
This is the song that the devil will be playing on loud speakers as he reclaims the earth.
Sacha is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 02:03 PM #22 (permalink)
solphilcox
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 146
ah this ol' bugger.....
here's the thing, nobody is going to revolutionize anything right now by simply deciding not to compress tracks to maximize RMS. It will change over time, and will be a slow process that will probably be caused by technical advancement. In a few decades time we will probably have entirely new formats of music and audio systems, and people will look back and laugh at how in this decade everyone was listening to music in mp3 format on ipods and myspace through laptop speakers and cheap earbuds; and that producers and engineers had to mix and master according to this format. it will be the same as every other historically redundant production device/method that people deem as silly now, such as linndrums, gated reverb, track bouncing, and mastering for vinyl.
if someone was to mix a record (particularly metal) with no compression and a low RMS, nobody would give a shit about how natural and dynamic it sounded. They would just be like 'wtf is this, why is this so quiet compared to my august burns red cd??' and probably think it was shit. Especially now with the way people make such an instant judgement from things like myspace, usually just hearing the first 20 seconds or so of a song; initial reaction is EVERYTHING. remember this is an instant gratification sheep society, nobody really has time to give a little time or throw away their preconceptions and let something grow on them; they just need whatever it is they're used to, which in this case is loud ass RMS and 'in your face' compressed mixes.
it will change, but acting on/bitching about it now is only counter-productive.
EDIT: I just read a handfull of the responses, didn't realise the original post was about the general use of overcompression on things like drums. To answer the original poster, there are shitty producers and engineers everywhere who all like to think they know what they're doing, or are fresh out of a college music production course and actually genuinely think they know what they're doing. Shit is as shit does I guess.
Last edited by solphilcox : February 18th, 2010 at 02:33 PM.
solphilcox is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 02:06 PM #23 (permalink)
mva801
Senior Member
mva801's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by solphilcox View Post
it will be the same as every other historically redundant production device/method that people deem as silly now, such as linndrums, gated reverb, track bouncing, and mastering for vinyl.
What?!?!?! Gated Reverb isn't cool anymore? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
mva801 is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 02:45 PM #24 (permalink)
[UEAK]Clowd
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermz View Post
I'm probably in the minority with this viewpoint in the current underground rage against the so-called 'loudness wars'.
maybe, but I'm right there with ya.
[UEAK]Clowd is offline
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2010, 12:31 AM #25 (permalink)
lolzgreg
Cereal Shipping Sneapster
lolzgreg's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Beach, New York
Posts: 4,193
I agree with Sacha that digital clipping is the nastiest, most irritating thing, ever.
Also, who cares what you do to get to your final product as long as it sounds good? If -7db RMS sounds better, go for it. If pumping on the 2bus makes things more exciting, go for it. Don't let a rule hold you back.
__________________
www.thetomatofarmstudio.com
PM me for Reamping, Mixing, Mastering, and Custom Impulses.
Guitar Amplifiers:
Baron Custom Amps DHG
Diezel VH4
Fortin Natas
Framus Cobra
Marshall JVM410H
Orange Rockerverb 100 MK II
Peavey 6505
Guitar Cabinets:
Freyette FatBottom 212
Marshall Mode Four 412
Mesa Boogie Rectifier 412
Mesa Boogie Rectifier 212
Splawn 412
Clients: The Empire Shall Fall, Eskimo Callboy, Fallbrawl, 26, Vanisher, AeneA, Burials...
